FORT WORTH, Texas — Leaders of some industries say there's no room for a debate about whether immigrants are taking American jobs. There's only room for more workers.

They say huge labor shortages exist in some industries, such as trucking, welding and restaurant work, and they've got numbers to show it. Large chunks of the U.S. workforce are approaching retirement age, and there are not enough young workers to replace them, so immigrant workers are needed, they say.

The American Welding Society, an industry group based in Miami, predicts a shortage of 200,000 welders nationwide by 2010.

But Steven Camarota, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that opposes illegal immigration, said he's skeptical when employers say there's a labor shortage, because wages have barely gone up over the years. He said 22 million Americans ages 18 to 64 who have a high school diploma or have dropped out of high school are unemployed or have given up looking for a job.

"Any industry you care to name, you will generally find that the employer says, 'We can't find anybody,' " he said. "What they really mean is, 'Given what we want to pay, we can't find anybody.' And that's the kicker."

Stephen Anthony, president of the Fort Worth Building and Construction Trades Council, a network of union groups, said he believes that illegal immigrant welders have kept wages down for U.S. workers.

Anthony said wages for union welders have just caught up to a $3-an-hour pay cut they took in 1983. He said they would have caught up sooner if there weren't so many illegal immigrants at work sites. Union welders earn $23 an hour, while nonunion welders generally earn about $12 an hour.

"We have a problem with illegals working for cheap, because it knocks down on our higher pay," he said. "They have put the cement workers out of business, the roofers out of business. ... There's no longer people trained in America that are doing that work."

Growth in the population of America's 16- to 24-year-olds — traditionally the backbone of restaurant staffs — is not keeping up with the industry's rapid growth, said Richie Jackson, executive vice president of the Austin-based Texas Restaurant Association.

"Over the next 10 years we will outstrip the general economy by about 50 percent," he said. "We will be creating 1 1/2 jobs for every job the economy creates."

Tiffany Wlazlowski, a spokeswoman for the American Trucking Association, said a nationwide shortage of 20,000 truck drivers now could reach 111,000 by 2014.

Carla Luig, owner of First Choice Transport in Fort Worth, said there's such a need for truckers that her company and many others broker out shipments to other companies and independent contractors.

Tracy Delce, president and owner of TinMan Enterprises, a welding company in Fort Worth, said she has seen welders' wages rise from $10 to $12 two years ago to $14 to $16 today.

Adrienne Zalkind, a spokeswoman for the American Welding Society, attributed the shortage to welders approaching retirement age at a time when America's aging infrastructure, such as bridges, needs repair.

Many immigrants said they are taking advantage of these opportunities to get better pay or to get out of tougher, dirtier work.

Illegal and legal immigrants said their friends and relatives are helping them find jobs and providing them with informal on-the-job training.

Manuel Castruita left construction to drive trucks. His uncle taught him how to drive an 18-wheeler.

"Since I was young in Mexico, I wanted to drive a big truck," Castruita said.

Castruita, 33, a legal resident who lives in Fort Worth, said he now makes about five trips a day hauling sand and rock to construction sites in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. He sometimes struggles with directions because his English is limited, but working in an air-conditioned truck is better than at a construction site, he said.

Gustavo Avalo, 31, a Cuban refugee who lives legally with his family in Fort Worth, said he wants to buy his own truck and work as an independent contractor.

"Nobody bosses me around. It's registered to me," he said. "It's good work and it pays well."